Transcript of Nurse Audrey Bell ARRB Interview
Date of interview: March 20, 1997.
Nurse Audrey Bell was the Parkland Hospital Supervisor of Operating and Recovery Rooms in 1963. In the course of her work on November 22, 1963, she had an opportunity to view President Kennedy's wounds. She also participated in the surgery on Governor Connally.
Nurse Bell described Kennedy's head wound as occipital, in the right posterior portion of the head. She did not see his throat wound. She recalled receiving "three to five fragments, perhaps four" from the body of Governor Connally, more than are currently in evidence. She viewed the Warren Commission photograph of these fragments and said that they were too small. According to ARRB staff member Doug Horne, Nurse Bell drew pictures of the fragments as she remembered them, but ARRB Chief Counsel Jeremy Gunn refused to take her drawing into evidence.
Audrey Bell also recalled phone calls from Bethesda to Dr. Perry on Friday night, not Saturday morning as reported by the autopsy doctors to the Warren Commission. This recollection, corroborated by Dr. John Ebersole's formerly-secret HSCA testimony among others, would if true cast grave doubt on the honesty of the reporting about the autopsy findings, and make all the more suspicious the fact that the neck was not dissected to track the bullet path.
See ARRB MD 184, the ARRB meeting notes of this interview.
This interview was taped on two sides of a cassette tape. Side 1 transcript is presented first, followed by side 2.
You can play the audio while reading along with the transcripts.
This transcript was created by Joshua Jackson.
——
SIDE 1
Speakers:
AB = Audrey Bell
DH = Douglas Horne
JG = Jeremy Gunn
DH: Okay. It's Thursday, March 20, 1997. My name is Doug Horne. I'm here with Jeremy Gunn from the Review Board, and we're interviewing Audrey Bell, in Vernon, Texas. Thank you for meeting with us.
Can we start by asking you to just review for us your professional qualifications, and a brief career summary?
AB: I was the supervisor—I'm a registered nurse, from the state of Texas, and I was the supervisor of operating rooms and recovery rooms at Parkland Memorial Hospital, at the time of the assassination. Since then, I took over the operating and recovery rooms and the surgery at Children's Medical Center in Dallas, and I retired from that facility, February of 1989.
DH: 1989? Okay. You've been in Vernon since then?
AB: Moved back to Vernon in '89. I'm a graduate of the old Parkland Hospital School of Nursing. I graduated in 1946.
DH: Okay. So you were at Parkland for many years?
AB: Yes. I've only been at Parkland and Children's. I was at Parkland until about 1966, I believe; I moved over to Children's. They were building a new hospital adjacent to Parkland, Children's was. They were down on Welborn. I went over and finished with the construction of that hospital, so they—and then opened that operating room. I like construction. I moved Parkland from the old Parkland down on Maple Avenue to where it is now (the original building). We did some expansion over there. Then when Children's was building a new facility, I went over there. Got a little bit late, for what I really wanted to do, but—cause's it's, you know, no changes [laughter]—well, somewhat. But anyway, after we'd been there for a while, we did enlarge the operating rooms and build four extra-large operating rooms, primarily for transplant surgery, neurosurgery, and that sort of stuff, for children. I finished up there helping to design the new ICU cardiac catheterization lab; the new tower that went up. Well, we finished the main construction, and then I said, "Somebody else can have the rest of it now."
DH: So you witnessed a lot of progress?
AB: Yes. But they were [unintelligible] good, 'cause Children's put a nurse in charge of everything that related to patient care. I was that liaison with the rest of the people in the hospital. So I got hold of an experience that very few people in nursing have an opportunity to do.
DH: Thank you. Can we move on next to November 22, 1963? And let me ask you: how did you first hear about the assassination, or the wounding, of the President that day? What did you first observe in trauma?
AB: Okay. I was in the dining room. Dr. Jenkins and I had just gotten our trays and sat down when they started paging Dr. Shires' staff. And I looked over at him, and I said, "Dr. Shires is out of town." He had had a big case a couple of days before, and I heard something had gone wrong. Dr. Jenkins had been out of town and had just gotten back.
About that—when they started the second one, Dr. Jenkins started to take—well, one of us started to get up and take the page tele-operator (he was down in Galveston). When Dr. Jones, sitting across—one of the senior residents—across the way, came by the table, he said, "I'll take the call." Now, we were sitting—like the telephone bank was just over here a few feet, and we were sitting on the table very close to it. Dr. Jones took—hung up the phone very rapidly, came back, placed his hands on the table, the end of the table. He said, "The President's been shot. He's on the way to the emergency room." I think we both looked up and said, "You're kidding." He said, "I'm not." So he went on to tell the other doctors that he was with about what was going on, 'cause it was surgery crew chief sitting over there.
Pepper [Dr. Jenkins] and I both picked up our tray, and he said, "I'll go get an anesthesia table," and I said, "Well, I think I better get to the emergency room." The reason I had the impulse to get to the emergency room is the emergency room supervisor had been on vacation. I still am not sure—I don't think she was there that day—but every day, I would check on the girls down in the emergency room to see if they needed anything. That was a good crew down there, and just anything I could help 'em with, administratively, was what I was interested. So that was the reason my first impression was "get down to that emergency room."
DH: Who was this supervisor who had then been on vacation?
AB: Doris Nelson.
DH: Okay.
AB: Doris got there that day—I think she was at home when she heard it, and she came in, thank goodness. But anyway, I went to the elevator—we went to the elevator [sigh], and the stairway downstairs was right next to it. And I think Dr. Jenkins—I'm not sure whether he walked or took the elevator, but I know that—I didn't take the elevator. Well, I don't think it was even on that floor, so he probably walked. I walked down to the emergency room, through the stairway, which went through the x-ray department.
Now, I was not in scrubs at this time. I was supposed to have gone downtown earlier in the day to have a meeting at the Adolphus with Mr. Smith and crew, because we were planning to bring the National Association of Operating Room Nurses to Dallas in February. And I was going downtown, but that got canceled around 12, 12:15, so I was still in street clothes.
I went in through the back door of the emergency room, from the x-ray, and the first person I saw was one of the administrators. And he did a double-take, 'cause I was in street clothes, and he said, "Oh, Audrey. Glad you're here." He said, "Go see what's going on. It's in Room #1." So I went in to the emergency room, and he—they had already brought the President in at that time; he was already there. Some of the doctors were trying to get cut-downs. Dr. Jenkins cut down right away and they got an infiltration tube down, and everybody was working: the nurses, there were three—at least three, might have been four, emergency room nurses in there, [phone ringing] and three or four doctors in there—
JG: Should we take a break?
AB: Yes—
[Audio Break]
DH: We're back on the record. Go ahead.
AB: They were also setting up to do a tracheostomy. Dr. Perry was gonna do that. And when I took a first look, I could recognize the President. But I didn't see an injury, because there was no injury around his face. I asked—I said, "Well, where's the injury?" And Dr. Perry was in, then he reached up to the—on the President's head, and just pulled up a little bit, turned his head to the left a little. And there was a gaping hole, and that's where that brain and fluids were dripping out. And I don't know, it could have been three or four inches, that I saw.
JG: [Crosstalk 08:42]
DH: In diameter? In diameter?
AB: In diameter, yeah. One of the—they were wanting to start an IV on the right arm. And I remember getting my scissors, or getting a pair of scissors, and cutting the President's shirt up the seam. See, one of the things we'd always been taught, on our trauma patients, was to try not to destroy the clothes, of any of that were there. We always cut up the seam or something in case the patient needed it later. But I remember cutting up the seam. I looked at the wound and [sigh] they were working. They had started doing the tracheostomy, and I—the nurses from the emergency room were there, and I thought, "I've got to get upstairs. I've got to call and get an operating room set up."
So, I went outside, and by that time we had loads of people: FBI, Secret Service, Dallas Police, County, the Sheriff's Department, the Governor's guards—see, the Texas Rangers were there. And every phone I could spot had somebody on it. And then I spotted a small corner office. It had no sign on it. And I opened the door, and sure enough, there wasn't anyone there. So I got in there, closed the door right quick so that we'd have—I'd have a phone. I called the OR and told them that we needed to set up for neurosurgery for the President.
DH: And the OR was on what floor?
AB: It was on the second floor.
DH: Okay.
AB: And we were down on the ground floor. And I went back out and started to—toward Room 1, when I heard this voice say, "What room is he in?" And someone said, "Number 2." I thought, "who else?" This was Dr. Shaw, head of the thoracic surgery department. So I just followed them in, and there was the Governor. You could see they had put chest tubes in, and they were working. You could tell that there was a chest wound. And I asked one of the residents, I said, "Anything else besides the chest wound?" He said, "Yes. We've got an orthopedic injury. We've got a fractured wrist, and there may be some leg wounds." So, I thought, well, I'd better get that room set up.
So I started back out to my room, and I met Dr. Clark going in to OR number one. Well, I made my phone call upstairs to get a room set up for the Governor. I said, "I'll be up there shortly." And as I was coming back out, well, Dr. Clark was back out in the hallway, and I said, "We have a room ready for the President, and you're ready to go, [unintelligible] need it." He said, "We won't need it." He said, "The President's dead." So [sigh], I went on back to OR number two—I was just around the corner from all of 'em—and I signaled to anesthesia that was in there, I said, "Come up whenever you want. We're setting up." He said, "Okay."
DH: Where were they setting up for Governor Connally? You said what floor?
AB: Second floor.
DH: So the second floor?
AB: The operating suite's on the second.
DH: Thank you.
AB: So I went on back upstairs and I got up to the elevator. And there was a mob of people around there. And I saw an administrator, and I looked over at him, and I said, "Get somebody on this"—it's a self-operating elevator—I said, "Get somebody on this elevator with a key and control it. Only those who have to go to third floor"—which was delivery; second floor, which was surgery—I said, "Only those that need it." And I said, "We're gonna be transferring the Governor, shortly." And so I went on up—and they did get a operator on that elevator back there—but anyway, I went in. I had to get out of the clothes, my—I was in street clothes. So I went in and changed clothes right quick, and came back out, and they were—about that time, they were bringing the Governor up.
We had some problems: one of the Governor's aides just had to see him, and he was having an argument with one of my nurses out in the hall. He said, "I've got to go," and he was in street clothes. And she was telling him he could not go into the operating room in street clothes. I peeked up and I heard what was going on, and I said, "You'll have to change clothes if you want to go back into the OR. You cannot go that way." And he said, "I've got to talk to the Governor." I said, " Well, go in yonder," and I sent an orderly in with him to change his clothes. He had to see the Governor, which was fine, and he did.
DH: Did you know his name? The aide?
AB: The aide? It was his chief aide that was with him. I don't know.
DH: Okay.
AB: One of 'em that was in charge of the party; I don't remember the name. Because then, I got all the Governor's party up—including Ms. Connally; Homer Garrison, who was in charge of the Texas Rangers—everybody. But we got the Governor up, and they started operating him. I was acting, really, as liaison, because I had my nurses and all back in the room. Other surgeries were being cancelled. The patients, unless it was an emergency, didn't wanna have surgery—I mean, when they heard what was going on. So they were clearing out, and there was some confusion there with the finishing cases, and they were moving into the recovery room trying to take care of them. We set up the anesthesia department, and Dr. Jenkins office for Ms. Connally and her party, and had an open line to Austin. And they were trying to find the kids, get ahold of them, see what—about them.
We got the telephone service in shortly along about this time. First—it just went out; everybody was using the phones. And I began getting a lot of calls from people [sigh] wanting to know—oh, other hospitals in town, saying they had rooms for the Governor. And I kept saying we're not gonna be moving the Governor to another hospital. Administration was getting the same calls, and wanting to know why I was telling 'em we were not gonna move him, I said, "Dr. Shires is not gonna move the Governor across town. I don't care," I said, "he's gonna be here, so you all might as well get the rooms fixed up around here, whatever they need to be." See, Parkland at that time had built private rooms, and the only place they had any private room was in my recovery room. So I said, "He's gonna be in recovery." Well, we had some [unintelligible] there.
But anyway, Dr. Shires came up about the same time that the Governor's children got there. And I was so glad to see him. He got dressed, but—and I had Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw back in the operating room. Well, I went back and I knew that we had to take care of the fragments. When I went back there, the scrubber nurse says, "I've got fragments on my table."
JG: Is this—so it's clear—there's fragments in Governor Connally?
AB: From Governor Connally—
JG: [Crosstalk]
AB: - that they had taken out of the arm and the leg. And I said, "Well, I better take 'em." So she handed 'em—they were in a little [unintelligible]—that's what we call a glass medicine cup—and she handed 'em off to me. And I went out and filled out the envelope that we filled for foreign bodies, and signed and dated it. One of the—I don't know whether it was FBI or Secret Service; I'm still unclear unto that, to this day—but it was one of 'em was in my office by this time, and he took the fragments. I had him sign for 'em, and that slip that he signed for was given to Administration later on that afternoon.
I did not go back down to the emergency room after we got the Governor up there, because I knew there was nothing I could do. My focus at that time had to shift to taking care of the Governor and gettin' him set up.
DH: That's a good summary of a busy day. Can we cover three specific areas now, as separate subjects that you've already kind of walked—I mean, that you've already summarized? I'd like to talk about the President's throat wound and head wound, and then we'll talk about finding the fragments in the glass, there. About how long did you think that you were in trauma? Might not remember, [unintelligible] estimate.
AB: Oh, probably—kinda hard to tell, but I guess acouple or three minutes, maybe? I'm really not sure [laughter]. You know, time just really flies, and I did not look at the clock on the wall when I was in there. But it couldn't have been over three minutes. It could have been even less, probably two. But just long enough to look at the wound, cut the shirt. I think I did turn on the oxygen. But those are things that are—you do so rapidly, that it doesn't take too much time.
DH: Then is it correct that after you left trauma room one, you did not re-enter?
AB: I did not go back, no. Ms. Kennedy was in there, and I think about that time I went in, and somebody put her in a chair just outside in the hall.
DH: Did you observe a wound on the anterior neck of the President?
AB: They were getting ready to—they were setting up the trach, to put through—I didn't—I just know that there was a wound there, and that they were getting ready to do the trach through the wound in the neck.
DH: Did you know that because of talk between the doctors, or because one of them announced it? Or did you just observe that they were—
AB: Well, they were setting up the trach—
DH: Okay.
AB: -and they were getting ready to go through, and somebody might've said, "We're going through the wound."
DH: You could understand by observing the tools they were using, right?
AB: Yeah.
DH: And the set up?
AB: Well, that is just natural, too. Whenever you've got a wound in the neck, in that area, and you've got to do it—and you have to put the trach in, which you have to so they can breathe, you go through or try to utilize that. Had it been off to the side of the neck it would've been different: they would have had to have closed that one and put one in. But the trach tube just curves down into the trachea.
DH: I see. So if someone asked you to describe the President's anterior neck wound, let's say, before the tracheostomy, would you be able to do that from your own independent recollection?
AB: No. Because they were—the tray was there, and they were prepping around it and draping and—you know, these things happen so quickly. Like Oswald. Just to give you an idea of how fast things can move, nine minutes after he hit that emergency room—
DH: On Sunday, on Sunday the 24th?
AB: Yes—we made the incision in surgery, and he had three cut-downs; and a chest tube in; had been intubated; had been prepped and draped and ready for the surgeons to make. So when you—you're talking about a time span where things—everybody just works in concert, and it moves very, very rapidly.
DH: A team concept?
AB: It is. It's very much a team, because trauma was a tra—I mean, Parkland was a trauma hospital.
DH: Okay. Thank you. Would you describe for me, using the most precise medical terminology that you can use, the President's head wound? The location?
AB: Okay, let's see. It was on the right rear. [Door bell] I think it's called the parietal area.
DH: We can go off the record: doorbell.
[Audio Break]
DH: Okay, we're back on the record. Before I ask you to describe the President's head wound, would you tell me where you were standing when you observed it, in relation to the cart?
AB: Oh, I was at the head of the table.
DH: Is that up—almost the head—
AB: I was at his head whenever Dr.—I believe it was Perry—shifted his head. He was laying straight back.
DH: Supine?
AB: 'Cause with the trach they had to. And he shifted the head a little bit to the left, and lifted up the—well, cut the matted area, the flap—there was a little bit of a—some flap, and you could see the hole. And there was brain and spinal fluid dripping down out of it. Then I noticed it was dripping, you know, down into a bucket.
DH: Anatomically, describe that for me. You were about to anatomically describe it, in terms of medical terminology—
AB: Well, I'll try. You see, the occipital is at the back, so to me that would be—it was the right of the occipital area. Now, whether it went any further than that, I didn't take time—I did not put on gloves and examine the wound. I just observed it visually.
DH: I see. If I was to ask you this: did the wound—was the wound located above the right ear, or forward of the right ear, or behind the right ear?
AB: I would say it was more behind the right ear, kind of a—maybe level and down. It was not above the right ear.
DH: Okay. Did the upper margin of the defect—would you say that was above the highest part of the ear, or—
AB: I don't know whether I saw the entire defect or not. I just saw the big hole back here in the back.
DH: Okay. Did you seen any other wounds on the President's head besides the one you've just described?
AB: No. And there were no facial wounds. Just the neck wound and the back of the head.
DH: Okay. What of the top of the head?
AB: The top of the head?
DH: The superior portion.
AB: Oh, he looked very natural up here, on the top of the head. When you walked in the room and took a look, you could tell it was the President on the table. And that's the reason I had to ask, "Where was the wound?"
JG: I'm sorry. If I can clarify: so you were standing at the—at, near the President's head, behind him, looking down from his head towards his feet. And his head was flat on the gurney, but you couldn't see the wound while the head was resting on the gurney?
AB: In fact,I was actually kinda to—his feet were toward the door, and I was on his right side. I came around on that side of the table. And I was just standing there, about—right about the head area, above the shoulders and the head there. And that's when I asked, "Where is the wound?"
JG: About how many inches or feet were you away from the head at the time that you saw—
AB: Saw it? A foot . . .
JG: [Unintelligible]
AB: I was right at the head of the table.
DH: Do you have any opinion as to what type of brain tissue you saw?
AB: I did not—all I know, it was brain tissue. Whether it was the cerebellum or the cerebrum or what, I did not go into that.
DH: Okay. We would like to ask you, if you don't mind—I'm gonna give you four excerpts from Grant's Anatomy, and if you don't mind, ask you to render your best recollection of the head wound you saw that day. And on some of these, they may—you may end up not marking some of these if you didn't see anything on that portion of the body. I have a blue pen here, which will probably contrast nicely with the—so Bell Exhibit One here is the front of the skull. And if you wanna make marks on that, you can. And if there's no need, then you don't need to.
AB: I didn't see any—there wasn't anything on the front of his head.
DH: Alright. Here's a right lateral view. A right lateral view, which I'll call Bell Exhibit Two. Now, I'll give you the pen. Following that we'll show you a rear view.
AB: Well, it would have been kinda back here, behind a little bit more—if this is just straight lateral, here. Because, he lifted a flap, and how far up the wound went, I do not know. I just know that what I saw, basically, was in the back of the head.
DH: Okay. Here's Bell Exhibit Three: it's a posterior view, which might be better for this purpose.
AB: Let's see. This would be the—
DH: This is the rear of the skull.
AB: Yeah. This would be the right side, here?
DH: Yes, ma'am.
AB: The wound that I saw basically was—I thought was in this area here. I don't know how far it really went over to the right side. But I just know that it seemed like this area was blown out. And that that basically is where the material was dripping from.
DH: Okay. If you feel comfortable with Bell Exhibit Four, I would ask you to represent what part of the brain that would have corresponded to—if you feel comfortable marking that drawing.
AB: Well, I'd say it would have to come down into this lower section, but I'm not—looked like it—maybe it would probably be somewhere like that, but I—I would say that's very unscientific.
DH: It's an approximation, then?
AB: Mm-hmm. Very much an approximation, because I didn't really stay and examine it that long. When I saw the massive wound and injury, I knew that if he was gonna get surgery, we had to put everything in motion very, very rapidly. So I did not stay and do any discussion with the doctors about the extent of the injury, how bad it was. My main focus then was to get an operating room ready, and get a crew set up so that—Dr. Clark wanted to bring him up, so there's—we'd have everything in ready just in the OR.
DH: Just to clarify here, you've already stated that the President's face was clear.
AB: Yes.
DH: Did you observe any damage to the right temple or the left temple?
AB: No.
JG: [Faint audio]
AB: No, that's what phased me so, because there wasn't damage on the face. That's the reason I had to ask, "Where was the injury?" 'Cause they had this—they had said—I guess I heard somebody say, "We've got a wound here that we're going through to do the trach," or there was—this little bit was one that—where'd they cut.
JG: Next question: about whether there was blood on the hair, or whether it was dried blood, whether it was matted?
AB: Oh, it—there was blood. It was matted. There was brain tissue, all kinds of fluid.
DH: In what area? Throughout? And that would be?
AB: Back here. On the back.
JG: Just the back.
AB: I saw it in the back. I did not notice it then in the front, but just at the back of the head.
DH: And when you said that, you just placed your hand on the posterior part of your skull behind your ears.
AB: Yes, on the right side, around there.
DH: Okay. That's for the record.
AB: Around that wound area.
DH: You mentioned a moment ago a flap of scalp. Let me ask this to try to clarify what we've said: when you observed the defect in the President's skull, was it completely absent of scalp and bone, or was there scalp and bone that might have been adhering and just lacerated? How would you describe the wound?
AB: There was some scalp down there, 'cause it was raised up, so I could see. Now, how far, whether it would go over the entire wound area or not, we didn't—I didn't see that. He didn't pull it back down. You know, it was just up. But it looked like that it—there was a lotta bone and a lotta scalp missing. It looked that way, but . . .
DH: But you did see brain?
AB: Did see brain tissue. Mm-hmm.
DH: We would like to ask you some questions now about the bullet fragments from Governor Connally, which you mentioned earlier. When you first saw the bullet fragments that you described handling, earlier in this interview, can you tell us once again where they were in the operating room at that time when you saw them?
AB: When I saw them, they were on the scrub nurse's table in a—what we call a medicine glass: it's small; it's about a one ounce glass that was just standard in the operating room. But it was glass, and not metal.
DH: Did you see them placed in the glass, or they were just sitting there when—
AB: No, they had been placed in the glass while I was out of the room. Dr.—I imagine Dr. Gregory was the one who placed 'em in the glass.
DH: Do you remember the names of the nurses that were assisting you?
AB: No, I haven't thought of those names in so many years.
DH: That's alright.
AB: [Laughter]
DH: Do you remember how many fragments there were?
AB: There were between three and five. I really think there were about four. They were in varying sizes.
DH: Was anything done to measure them before they transferred them?
AB: No. We did not measure them. That is one of the things that we always relied upon the pathologist to measure fragments. And that was part of our policy, is to get them down to the pathologist. And we had a foreign body envelope that we put these things in.
DH: And who filled out the foreign body envelope?
AB: I did.
DH: You did. Okay. Can you describe about how big that envelope was? The dimensions, more or less?
AB: Oh, it's a—the one I used that day was a standard envelope size—what is it, three and a half by five? It was about that size. It was a brown manila envelope.
DH: Alright.
JG: When you said standard size, was this letter—standard letter size? Or smaller?
AB: Standard. They're small letter-sized.
DH: Oh, small letters.
AB: Not the—
DH: Not the long ones?
AB: Not the long ones, but the standard. It was about the—
DH: Okay. And manila—
AB: Manila envelope. Mm-hmm. Printed on the outside in black.
DH: Was that a Parkland form or a state of Texas form?
AB: Parkland. Could have been Dallas County, because I believe they were in charge of the laboratory at that time.
DH: Can you revisit with me, one more time, your best recollection of who you gave those to?
AB: It was either someone from the Secret Service or the FBI—and I'm not sure. And there—I gave 'em to one individual who signed for them. There could have been two of 'em, and probably were two of 'em: one standing in the doorway, and one in the office.
DH: What is it that makes you think that it was the Secret Service or the FBI? Was there anything special that—
AB: Yeah. I think they identified themselves, but I just don't—I know it wasn't to the Dallas Police, or the County Sheriffs, or the Texas Rangers.
DH: Okay. Well—
AB: So it had to be—I think, it had to be a federal, because they were in street clothes; they were not in uniform.
DH: Okay. And you said there was a receipt executed? Did you say that?
AB: Yes. They signed for it.
DH: Did you sign the receipt, also?
AB: Yes. And that went to administration.
DH: To administration at Parkland?
AB: At Parkland that day, later.
DH: That had been—
AB: All of our papers, everything we had up there.
DH: So that would've been down in Mr. Price's office?
AB: That's right. That's how that—they knew that I had done 'em, because when I went back over on Saturday some of the doctors were there. And then they called me. And I know Secret Service was down there—no—yeah, I believe Secret Service was in the office that morning. And they were tracking the—who all had handled them, and where the fragments had come from. They were just getting a chain—
DH: That morning would be the next Saturday—Saturday the 23rd?
AB: Saturday. Mm-hmm.
DH: Did you speak to any government officials Saturday about what had happened with the fragments? Did you—did anyone speak to you?
AB: Yes. I was in administration.
DH: On Saturday?
AB: On Saturday.
DH: And do you remember which agency they were from? Which federal agency?
AB: I don't know, but I—I thought it was Secret Service, but I'm not sure. It could have been both of 'em.
DH: Okay. I'm going to show you a document and ask you to read it. It's dated—and I'll leave these with you keep it—it's dated November 23, and it's a one-page FBI report. And if you just read that, I'll then ask you a question, too, about it.
AB: You don't want me to read it out loud, do you?
DH: Oh, no.
AB: Okay.
DH: No, no.
[Audio Break]
DH: Okay, I'm back on the record now, and Audrey Bell is completing the reading of the FBI document.
JG: Can you identify the document?
DH: Once again, it's dated November 23, 1963. It's an FD-302 Form, and it records an interview of Ms. Audrey Bell on the 23rd. It is record #180-10090-10270. It's an HSCA record, agency file #000919. Okay. Do you have any comments about whether this matches your recollection?
AB: Number one, this—this is just speaking of a single fragment; they're not using the plural. And there were more than one fragment; there were, I would say, three—between three and five, maybe four. And they were in different configurations.
DH: When you say that, do you mean different shapes?
AB: Yes. In different shapes. They weren't all the same shape.
DH: They were in the same envelope, though?
AB: They were all in the same envelope, because they had been removed from the Governor's body.
DH: Okay. Is there anything else about that report that you would wanna comment on?
AB: I don't remember—unless it was the Texas state trooper that was in uni—out-of-uniform. It was not a uniformed officer that I gave 'em to. And I did get the receipt, and my file—I do not have any files that contain a copy of this receipt, because everything was turned in to administration. This was before the great days of the copying machine, and they didn't copy everything. We didn't have the facility.
I don't remember stating that there—I said—we knew that we didn't get all the fragments, because there were still small fragments in Governor Connally's leg and arm. So we knew that it—I can't imagine making that one. I don't remember anything about the small flesh wound or penetration of the skin by the same object in the Governor's left thigh, either. Oh, that—does that say groin? There's a [unintelligible] down there.
DH: And someone has crossed it out and put "thigh."
AB: Left thigh.
DH: Right, right. [Unintelligible].
AB: Well, I think they did work on the thigh. They cleaned it up, did some debriding of the area.
DH: Before I show you a photocopy of the foreign body envelope and ask you about that, let me ask you two more clarifying questions: do you remember what color the fragments were?
AB: Well, they were a metal color. Let's see—they weren't bright, they weren't dark, but they were, I would say, they kinda looked like a dark—maybe, a stainless—well they weren't bright like a stainless steel. And they weren't real dark, as far as—
DH: Were they silver or grey or copper? A few choices there.
AB: I would say that they probably were more greyish. I'm not sure. After all these years, I really—I think you're the first one that's ever asked me the color of 'em.
DH: Okay.
JG: If I can ask you just a couple questions on this: do you remember speaking with an FBI agent who was taking notes? Shortly after the assassination?
AB: Well, the next morning, down in the administrator's office, they were recording. They had a set out on the coffee table, and there were some agents that—the doctors had just left when I went down.
DH: On Saturday?
AB: On Saturday. So we were in the administrator's office and there were some people there. They had been in earlier that morning. I guess it was gettin' close to noon by the time that I went down.
JG: Were you ever shown any copy of their notes, or what they wrote down in that conversation?
AB: No. No.
DH: And this is the first time you've seen this document?
AB: It's the first time I have seen that one.
DH: Okay.
JG: How would you comment on the general accuracy of this two-paragraph document? Does it seem substantially accurate, or—you've mentioned that you—
AB: Well, I gave them the fragments. And we were in my office in the operating room at the time. They were signed for. They were in the envelope when I gave 'em to 'em. I don't recall this instruction from the Governor's office to identify. But that doesn't mean somebody couldn't have stuck their head in there and said something about it. Basically, at this time, I thought they'd probably go down to our own lab. That's where they'd end up; that's where our fragments went. But this gentleman said that he would take 'em, and I thought that he was from the FBI or the Secret Service. I'm not sure.
DH: And that's the person that you gave 'em to on Friday? Thats the one you're talking about?
AB: Yes. And I do not know the names of all the people, or the agencies they were with, on Saturday when I was in the administrator's office—and neither whether the same people stayed in there all the time or not.
DH: Okay. I'm about to show you another document that is a—that is an—that is a photocopied excerpt from the Warren Report, volume 17, page 841. And I'm gonna ask you to look at the top half of this page, Commission Exhibit 842, which is a photographic copy of a foreign body envelope, and ask you if you've ever seen that before?
AB: Well, I notice this has got an "s" on it. It says, "bullet fragments."
DH: I see. I see that, too.
AB: "Right arm?" "Dr. Gregory, Rutherford, Schrader." That would've been, they were orthopedics. And that looks—you do notice the word "fragments." There—couldn't imagine not putting an "s" on it if I had more than one fragment.
DH: Do you—do you believe that you filled out anything on that envelope yourself? In your writing, in your handwriting?
AB: Oh, I know I filled it out. I can tell: it's my writing.
JG: If I can ask just a clarifying question: is this the type of form that, you were [crosstalk]—that you were talking about?
AB: Yes. Uh-huh.
JG: This is the one—this is a photocopy of what appears to you to be the one that you filled out on November the 22nd?
AB: Yes. Yes. And that looks like—that really looks like my writing, because I printed that out—I printed it out.
DH: At the bottom half of the envelope, there are many initials. Do you see your initials anywhere on there [unintelligible]?
AB: Nope.
DH: I have another version of this.
AB: I see my name over here, and that's—
DH: Yes.
AB: But—
DH: On the line that says "nurses."
AB: I don't see my initial on that.
DH: I have another version of this photocopy on a letter from the House Assassinations Committee, which they mailed to you on March 18 (Document #000919, that's the agency file number; the record number for this one is 180-10090-10268). And on this version—we're on the first one—the label "Commission Exhibit #842" covers up part of the envelope. On this photocopy, that part of the envelope that had been covered by "Commission Exhibit" is now uncovered. And I wanted to ask you, what's the meaning of this phrase, the "unit number?"
AB: That's the patient's number in the hospital.
DH: Patient number?
AB: Uh-huh. Every patient that comes into the hospital has a unit number that follows them. For any admission, any future admission, and that keeps all their records together.
DH: Okay. "Sex" and "race" are self-explanatory, and the other entry looks like it might have been "age," but I can't really read it. Can you tell me what that word might have been?
AB: It probably was. Uh-huh. Yeah. "Age," "sex," and "race."
DH: Do you know what this number is on the right-hand margin, "1176 -" . . . something?
AB: No.
DH: No. You never—that's—would that have been something you would have entered? Or perhaps, someone else?
AB: No. That would not have been—it's on this one, that copy. We would not have—we did not enter anything except the unit number for the patient. Any other number would have been added by the pathologist or someone else.
DH: Going back to this Warren Commission Volume 17 excerpt on page 841, on the right hand side of this page, they had shown a container, a transparent container, which looks like it might have been plastic. And it contains some material. Now, I don't—first of all, is the foreign body envelope in this photograph, is this life-sized, or smaller, or bigger than life-sized? This envelope here.
AB: Well, the envelope is about three and half by five inches.
DH: I see. This might be smaller, then?
AB: It would be—the actual envelope would have probably been—no, it's about that size. Might have been just a little bit longer. They've cut off the top up here a little bit, and there would have been a little bit of space at the top. You see, your copy here doesn't show "Dallas County Hospital District"—
DH: I see.
AB: -on it, and there would've been some space above it.
DH: The reason I ask that is it appears that this was photographed next to this container with some material in it. My next question for you is—
AB: Well, these—
DH: These are described—well, the contents of this container, Commission Exhibit 842, are described by the Warren Commission as being the Connally fragment material. Is that—
[Audio Cuts Out]
[end of side 1]
SIDE 2
Speakers:
AB = Audrey Bell
DH = Douglas Horne
JG = Jeremy Gunn
DH: We've turned the tape over, and let me repeat the question for the record. On page 841 of Volume 17 of the Warren Commission, at the top half of the page, there's a photograph of Commission Exhibit 842, a container with some material in it. And my question is, does this material in this photograph—is that consistent with your recollection of the fragment material that you gave to the official on Friday the 22nd?
AB: No, it doesn't seem to be all there. Now, this would—
DH: This is supposed to be from the President's brain, the bottom half of the page.
AB: Oh, really?
DH: So you should—well, it's supposed to be. That's what that's supposed to be.
AB: Oh. It looks like it's in cotton. No, there was more than one fragment. I had a—we had a fragment about this size or larger. That's on the bottom part there.
DH: Okay, you're pointing at the photograph at the bottom of the page, which is labeled 843, but—and go ahead.
AB: And there could have been one about the size of the other fragments to the left here, but there was also an odd-sized one that kind of curved and went—it was longer than it was wide. So, just that one fragment—there had to be—I know there were three. It could have been four. Some of 'em were small like that. That's almost—that's not even as large as a pellet, looks like.
JG: When you say "like that," which are you pointing to?
AB: Oh, this one.
DH: At the top.
JG: It wasn't large as [unintelligible] —
AB: That's not even as large as a pellet out of a shotgun.
JG: The one to the far right?
AB: Yes.
JG: The one that you're pointing to?
AB: And it's kinda hard to tell what the rest of that is. It looks like that's just photocopied.
DH: Those other tiny dust-like images, they are in the book that we copied this from. So they appear to be part of the photographic image, but they're very, very tiny. It is unclear what they are, but they're not a product of our Xerox machine.
Okay. I'm now going to show you another document. This is—well, let me ask you this: do you remember meeting with anyone from the House Assassinations Committee?
AB: Yes. They came to Dallas in '70-something—'78, I think—'76. I never did see what they wrote up. They did do an interview, but I never did see the report of the interview. They were gonna send me a copy, but I never did get it.
DH: I'm about to show you a document: HSCA document 180-10090-10271, file number 000920. This is the transcript of their interview with you. I'd like you to read this. We'll go off the record and then ask for your comments.
AB: Okay.
[Audio Break]
DH: Okay. We're back on the record, and Audrey Bell has just had a chance to read the transcript of the March 12, 1977 interview with the HSCA. Have you ever seen this before?
AB: I have not seen this interview, no.
DH: Does it match your recollections of that event?
AB: As well as I can remember. This was 20 years ago. We did this one afternoon after work.
DH: Yes, ma'am, 20 years ago. Do you—is there anything about it that seems incorrect to you?
AB: I think basically it is correct. I just don't see the drawing that I did on that day. But I—
DH: Do you remember doing the drawing?
AB: Yes.
DH: Okay. Alright.
AB: 'Cause I think I had to do it twice. I got the bottom of the medicine glass too big, that was—you know, they're small. Let's say, like a shot glass.
DH: Okay. I'm going to show you yet another document. It's a letter that's addressed to you. It's dated a few days after this event: it's dated March 18, '77, from the House Select Committee on Assassinations. I'd like to ask you—pardon me (record #180-10090-10268, file #000919)—I'd like to ask you, did you ever receive this letter from them?
AB: I don't recall this letter.
DH: Okay. This is the one which has attached to it another Xerox copy of the foreign body envelope, which I referred to earlier in this interview. I mistakenly said at that time they sent it to you. What I should say correctly is that we have photocopies of this letter in the House Assassination Committee files. We do not have in their files any correspondence back from you, which is what they asked for, a letter; they asked you to comment on the envelope. We do not have an answer back from you to them. So we wondered if you had received it.
AB: I do not recall receiving this letter. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing from them again after this original recording. They had said that they were going to send me a transcript, but I never did receive it.
DH: Okay, well you can keep that.
JG: It's a little bit late when it finally goes through.
DH: Twenty years later the government comes through. We have a little bit of a mystery we're trying to clarify here and resolve. What I would like to do is read to you an excerpt from a memo written by one of our staff members. Mr. Joe Freeman wrote this memo on April 26, 1996. It concerns the Connally fragments, and it concerns the subject of your transmission of them to another person. If you may, I'd like to read a paragraph from it, and I'll let you read it if you'd like. I'll ask for your comments.
Mr. Freeman writes—he discusses the foreign body envelope, which he found in this letter that we just showed you. And then he says:
"Bell, after consulting with one or more members of Governor Connolly's staff, president of Parkland turned the envelope containing the fragments over to Texas State Trooper Bobby M. Nolan. There is a receipt for this transaction written in handwriting, which appears to be the same as that on the envelope, i.e. it appears to be Audrey Bell's handwriting. On the receipt, as opposed to the envelope, the term 'fragment,' singular, is used in describing the envelope's contents, as opposed to the plural version of the noun on the envelope. The receipt is written on an office memorandum "from," and in the "to" category, Bell writes what appears to be, quote, 'Lieutenant Alexander on the top line, 'Crime Lab' on the second line,' end quote. Bell and Nolan each signed the receipt, which is dated 11-22-63. Nolan also initialed the envelope itself."
AB: Well, Lieutenant Alexander was with the Dallas Crime Lab, or we had a Lieutenant Alexander that we worked with down there. I don't think he was up there that day.
DH: Okay. Have you ever met Bobby Nolan, Texas State Trooper Bobby Nolan, that's referred to?
AB: I could have met him. I just don't recognize who he is at this time. I had so many from the Texas Trooper's office there, because they were the ones guarding the Governor.
DH: The Governor. Were they normally in uniform or not?
AB: Yeah, they were in uniform. The ones that I recall were in uniform. That's the reason I don't think that is correct. You know, that kind of ties in to—there was a newspaper report out in Dallas. Somebody, and I think it was with the Texas State department, said that they had a handful of those fragments themselves--this came out in the Dallas Times-Herald—-and that they were—-he pulled them out of his pocket accidentally. I don't think he ever really said that he knew how they got there—that they were from the Governor's wound. And I know I had a call from TV that day, and everything else, wanting to know, because I think it had been on record many times that I had the fragments, and then turned them over to—and at that time, there was one of the TV guys, news guys living in our apartment complex there, who called me first about it.
DH: This event you're describing, was this possibly the same year that the House Committee spoke to you?
AB: I don't know. I'm trying—it could have been. It was along in about that time, I think.
DH: Do you remember the name of that trooper involved in that incident?
AB: No.
DH: Was it this name, Bobby Nolan, or was it different?
AB: It could have been Bobby Nolan. I don't know whether it was him or whether it was someone else, but there was a big play in Dallas for at least 24 hours about somebody else having those fragments.
DH: And the media interviewed you?
AB: And the media—I think it was Channel 4.
DH: Did that other individual, who said he had fragments, call you?
AB: No. We had no contact.
DH: Okay. Mr. Freeman, when he wrote this, I think he's basing his account on—he cited this receipt. He's no longer with the staff. [Unintelligible] He based this on the receipt. He was trying to piece this together. Did you ever meet any state troopers that were not in uniform during your whole time at the hospital?
AB: Not that I'm aware of. I think even Colonel Garrison always wore a uniform.
JG: Can I ask you a couple of questions? Do you remember talking to Mr. Alexander at all about any fragments or having any discussions with him?
AB: Our "crime lab Alexander?"
JG: Yes.
AB: I'm just trying to recall. That could have been the other person, 'cause I wanted—I was gonna give 'em to him, and he said it was okay to go ahead and give 'em. That could have been that second individual in the room. But basically, no, it's the first time I've ever thought about talking to Lieutenant Alexander about the fragments. Because they never got down to him. Normally I would have taken them down to him.
JG: Do you remember any other documents or memoranda about the fragments or describing the transfer of them, such as a handwritten memorandum talking about transfer, or anything else other than the envelope that you've already—
AB: I had the envelope, and the individual signed. I wrote on there something about the foreign body envelopes containing the fragments being given to—
DH: And you're talking about the receipt now? There was an envelope and there was a separate receipt?
AB: Yes. They had to sign for 'em. It was on the Dallas County Hospital District Memorandum. I remember it was one of the red ones, the red memos that we had.
DH: Okay.
AB: And it was about a half of an 8 and a half by 11 page.
DH: The memo page?
AB: You know, that standard, that memo page. And he signed it for me, and then that went to Administration that afternoon.
DH: Meaning that you sent it down to Administration?
AB: I took it down.
DH: You took it down. Okay.
JG: And that was in your handwriting?
AB: It was in my handwriting, yes. Because when we signed for Oswald's, when Dr. Shaw was in the office, when I—see, I identified the Oswald bullet. I had my ID on that.
DH: Why don't you tell us about that? About what happened on Sunday?
AB: Well, Dr. Shaw was in there about this foreign body.
DH: I'm sorry?
AB: And he came in the office about the time I was getting ready to deliver it. And I think that went to—that had to go to the Dallas Police Department, that one did. And he said, "I'll co-sign that one with you." He said, "We all went through such a hard time Saturday," about the other fragments.
DH: Oh.
AB: So—see, he [laughter] he was in the operating room. So, you know, they wouldn't know. And he said, "I'll co-sign that," that it has been delivered.
JG: Did he say anything more about the problems with the other fragments?
AB: No.
JG: What did you understand him to be referring to?
AB: Well, see, in—in a case, any case, you have to have a line. The fragments had gone from Dr. Gregory, proper, to the scrub nurse's table, to me, and I had delivered them to someone else. You've got to establish this line—to the point when Dr. Shires removed the bullet out of Oswald on Sunday, all of the sudden I was outside of the room and I heard him yell "Audrey!" And I said, "Yes?" He said, "Take this bullet. I don't want another person to handle it between you and me." And that, again, was back to the line—chain of command—
JG: Chain of custody.
AB: Chain of custody, yes.
DH: He wanted to minimize the chain of custody.
AB: Yes. And it went directly from the surgeon to me. He didn't even put it on the scrub table. He handed that bullet directly to me. I identified it on the end with "AB." And then when I took it to the office to fix the foreign body envelope—and Dr. Shaw—I guess he'd been in the operating room—he came in right behind me and he said, "I'll co-sign that receipt. I'll witness--I'll sign it as a witness to that receipt, that—who you give this to." And again, that receipt went down Sunday afternoon to Administration. We did not keep—I did not keep any of those papers in the O.R.
JG: Typically, what happens with the papers once they have gone to administration? Did the Administration keep a copy of them? Did the Administration give them to the Police, and keep a record of the transfer?
AB: I would think that Administration would keep a copy and probably give the original to whichever one of the investigating bodies was taking care of 'em. I mean, I would assume that: that they would get the originals and we'd just have a copy in the Administrator's office. That was my understanding. Everything was to go down there so that there would be one receiving place.
DH: I have a question about the memo paper itself. You said it was red. Was the letterhead red, or was it all the paper?
AB: No, it was white with red lettering.
DH: Red letter?
AB: Red printing on it.
DH: The header was red? Red letter?
AB: Yes. I think it was "Dallas County Hospital District Memorandum" or something like that, and "To" and "From."
DH: Alright. Just briefly, to complete the record of—because you've alluded to it twice, now—could you describe your involvement in the events of Sunday? Just briefly for us.
AB: Oh, briefly. Okay, I was home when I heard it, and I got to the hospital before they got there with Oswald. So I was able to change clothes and get down to the emergency room when Oswald arrived. On the way down, I had—we had a crew doing surgery, some minor surgery, and I pulled the staff out of it, out of the room, and let the residents finish their case. And they started setting up. They had heard it and the circulating nurse had been tryin'—we had very limited staff that day; it was on a Sunday. And so I went back to help her get set up. There were two of us, and she was the senior circulating nurse that would—she and I were doing the circulating for that room that day. She was staying in the room practically all the time. I was doing a lot of running in and out, getting things.
'Cause we had such a problem with all of the security. We had the Dallas Police, the Sheriff's Department, the FBI, I think we still had Secret Service, and we had Texas Rangers. You have to understand that in the OR, we had an elevator up from the emergency room, and there was—even though this was an all-restricted area—-a part of a hallway—so that they could get back into the other part—was classified as a non-sterile area so that people in street clothes and what have you could get back to the dressing rooms. 'Cause this came up—where it came up just off to the left, was Operating Room Number Two, which is where we set up for Oswald that day. Just slightly to the right was Operating Room Number Three. And if you just went around the corner, that's where the office area was. So it kind of went around. And I had all these people in this non-sterile area encroaching onto the other side of the hall at times, which got to be a real problem.
DH: During the surgery?
AB: Well, after—when we—they all got up there some way, because there were security people or policemen or sheriff's deputies, what have you. They came in the front door, but they migrated to the back. And I didn't have anyone in the office 'cause we didn't have a secretary on Sundays. And anybody going by would just grab the phone, if they could; if you had time to answer. I had called downstairs and asked the nursing office to see if they could find me another supervisor that could get up there, 'cause I needed somebody with authority. All of my doctors that were available were in with Oswald, even the anesthesia.
So, see, we still had a lot of troopers and all around, because I still had the Governor in the recovery room, and we still had Mrs. Connally up there.
DH: All on the second floor?
AB: All on the second floor, confined. It was the only place within the hospital that didn't have outside windows.
DH: So were you present during all of the surgery on Oswald? Or just part of it, when Dr. Shires managed it?
AB: I was in and out for the whole thing.
DH: The whole thing? In and out for the whole thing?
AB: From the emergency room on up. In fact, Dr. Shires and I rode up in the elevator together. And I had already changed clothes, and he started undressing in the elevator and grabbed a suit.
Later that day, after I'd gone down the stairs and was coming back in, I heard a voice. I was trying to be identified 'cause we had people—it didn't matter who you were. IDs didn't count. Somebody on the inside had to identify you to get back in. And they changed guards on the front door when I'd gone through Administration. And he said, "Well, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask somebody." I'm in scrubs, jacket, everything.
About that time, Dr. Shires walked out of the recovery room where the governor was, and he said, "Oh, there you are. Where are my clothes?" I said, "In my office." [Laughter] The guard said, "Well, I guess you belong here, don't you?" Dr. Shires said, "Yes, she belongs here." But that was the type of security we had that day. No one came in and out.
DH: Did you ever write any reports for Parkland Hospital or for any other body on the events of that week? For the federal government or for the hospital?
AB: No. I don't recall any. Just verbal. And, of course, the circulating nurses made out operating room records for the surgeries that they were involved in.
DH: I see.
AB: And I'm sure that Administration got copies of those, because that's the people who were involved on the cases.
DH: Did any federal government personnel interview you on Sunday as they had on Saturday?
AB: No.
DH: Did you discuss the assassination or the events at Parkland with any other medical personnel that weekend? When I say the weekend, I include Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
AB: Well, I'm sure we talked about it some among the staff up there. And I certainly had to talk to my staff in the recovery room and even from administration about setting up for the Governor and what the accommodations were gonna be. I talked with administration about that as well as my staff. When I say administration, I'm talking nursing administration as well as the hospital administration. But there wasn't any official. It was just talk.
Oh, I had to see what we were gonna do about the cases that were scheduled for Monday, which we canceled. We canceled everything out, except for the emergencies that had to be done.
DH: Did the trauma room one or trauma room two personnel talk about the wounds on the patients they treated with each other that weekend? Is that a—
AB: I do not know. I don't think there was probably much talking because—there might have been some talking among themselves, because we all know that you really can't discuss what all happened. I mean the privacy of an individual. And it's just not ingrained in most of us to talk about it. I don't remember giving detailed reports even to my own family about it. You know, they knew I was involved. But you just don't talk about that.
But, can I just say one thing about the tracheostomy again?
DH: Please.
AB: Saturday morning when I got over there, Dr. Perry came up to the office. He looked like pure hell. 'Cause he had been, you know, primary until Dr. Clark came down in with the President.
He sat down in the chair and he was—I said, "You look awful. Did you get any sleep last night?" And he said, "Well, not too much between the calls from Bethesda that came in during the night." I said, "What about?" He said, "Oh, whether that was an entrance wound or an exit wound in the throat." He said, "They were wanting me to change my mind that it was a entrance wound."
DH: Do you recall what time of day this was?
AB: Well, it had to be in the morning hours.
DH: That he spoke to you?
AB: Mm-hmm. Because he left the hospital, I think, later that afternoon.
DH: Would this have occurred before you met with the federal officials about mid-day?
AB: Sure.
DH: Before that?
AB: I believe so. Because I didn't meet with them until about noon. And then I went to a press conference that was being held that afternoon. And then I went home. It was over there that morning while I was doing some of my work
JG: Did he say who had called, whether it was a doctor or FBI?
AB: He didn't—he didn't say. He just comment—and we never discussed it any further. But I had just commented he looked like—he looked like hell. Because he did. He was—he took a big—he took a tremendous blow with all this.
JG: In what way did he take a blow?
AB: Well, he was working on the President. Actually, late Friday afternoon, he came to the office and he sat down in a chair and he said, "You know, I've always wanted to see the President. But I never thought it would be under these conditions." I mean, it really hit him hard that he was down there working on the President. He was the chief person in the room originally. And, you know, having to make decisions about what they were gonna do, kind of directing the others, doing the trach, all that sort of stuff.
You know, in situations like that, I'm sure you're aware, you know, you just have to, all of a sudden, you just have to put everything behind you and do what you have to do. Like when Oswald came in, just before he arrived at the emergency room, all the doctors practically went back in. Some of 'em were on the road home. They turned—made U-turns in the middle of the road and came back. We were all down there when they loaded him in. And somebody that must have been a first-year resident said, "What are we gonna do?" One of the others looked up and said, "The same thing you do for every gunshot wound that comes in. Just stay with the routine." And that's it: you've got to stay with the routine to do things like this. And it hits you later.
DH: Yes, it does.
AB: As far as Oswald, after he died, we did have to keep him in the operating room for a while until we got the release from the FBI. I think they were having to get Ms. Oswald and the kids, and they wanted to secure them. Or they were en route or something. But we probably kept—I don't know, it might have been 30 minutes, it might have been an hour—that we kept him after they had determined that there wasn't anything else we could do. 'Cause he just bled to death. His wound was so massive. That aorta was torn up.
DH: Is there anything that we haven't covered? Anything else that you would like to—that you think we should address? That you observed or that you saw?
AB: I can't—I really can't think of anything else. Because I really didn't observe—you know, I was just in with the President for a short period of time. Focused in on the Governor. And then, of course, for the next several days, that was the big thing that I took care of; we were taking care of the Governor.
DH: That's right: you were the supervisor of operating and recovery rooms.
AB: That's right. And see, we had to keep the Governor in the recovery room until they could fix a secure room out on the floors. Because all of 'em—all the rooms faced Harry Hines Boulevard. And there were rooftops across the way. At that time, we really didn't know what was going on—still. So we had to keep him until they could put lead shields.
DH: Wow.
AB: Colonel Garrison ordered lead shields on all the windows. And there was a couple of rooms. One of them that Mrs. Connally—they put Mrs. Connally in the room that the Governor was in. And we got him out in time for Walter Cronkite's interview on . . . was it Tuesday? Think it was Tuesday night Walter Cronkite interviewed the Governor. Dr. Gregory and I were standing back behind the cameras [crosstalk] —
DH: Was this the Tuesday after the assassination?
AB: Uh-huh.
DH: Wow.
AB: With the cart for an emergency room, so he had tubes. But he interviewed the Governor—but we were there with him. It was on—for the 6 o'clock news, I guess, or what have you.
DH: If we can find a receipt, the receipt that you alluded to, that you signed for the transfer of the foreign body envelope, the Connally fragments, may we contact you and ask you, by mail, and ask you if you can recognize it, the [unintelligible]?
AB: Sure.
DH: 'Cause we will be looking for it.
AB: Because there are. There are two receipts: one for the fragments, and one for Oswald's bullet.
DH: Yes. Right. Thank you.
JG: I actually have a question for you, on back at Commission Exhibit 842.
DH: Forty-two, [unintelligible].
JG: Down at the bottom third, there are several different initials. Can you identify any of those, of who they are? Maybe starting in the top left one in the darkest handwriting?
AB: I just—I don't see any there that I recognize. One of 'em look like a doctor's writing, okay?
DH: [Laughter]
JG: There's one—
AB: B-M-N: I have no idea who that would be. C-G: yeah, the only thing that—that—if that's—is that a C-G?--that's a CJ, isn't it?--or a J—
DH: Which, this?
AB: Right here.
DH: This is a Q-9, we believe.
AB: Q-9.
DH: It's the number of the FBI agency.
AB: Oh, I was looking to see if that coulda been Charles Gregory.
DH: Well—
AB: If they had showed it to him, you know, the next day—
DH: We think it's Q-9--maybe it's something else.
AB: That's the only one that I could, offhand, put anything with. And I was going with Dr. C. F. Gregory. I don't—he didn't use the F routinely. Like at that time, I didn't use the N that distinctive. If that could be a C-G, but that is—that doesn't really look like it.
JG: Have you seen other envelopes of this sort, with any initials on it?
AB: No. We rarely ever see an envelope once we've delivered it to the crime lab.
JG: Okay. So they just—
AB: They sign for it, we sign it in. In another book, not even on the envelope.
JG: So then, from standard practice, those would not likely be doctors or nurses?
AB: Hm-mmm. No. There wouldn't be anyone from—that I'm aware of. It'd be somebody further on down the line. Even in the crime lab, we'd just—[unintelligible] the foreign body down, we signed it in, and both put with our name and description, and they signed it. I'd recognize it. We didn't do additional writing on that unless we had something about the foreign body we wanted to put on there. And Oswald's may have had down here in the bottom—it probably should have—that I had identified. This had my—had the—my marking on the bullet, with what it looked like.
DH: Did you—oh, did you mark the Oswald bullet, yourself?
AB: Yeah, I marked it, myself.
DH: Okay.
AB: And put it in the envelope. And it had some marking on it, which is the—which woulda been something about like—if you get it, something that—it would have had a mark, just about like that.
DH: An "a-capital-A-B?"
AB: "a-capital-A-B." If you look at it real closely, that's an A, an N, and a B.
DH: I see. And you scratched that into the metal?
AB: Yeah.
DH: The base?
AB: It's not the tip, but the opposite end: the head of the bullet. Yep, 'cause we don't mark bullets along the side.
DH: Mm-hmm. Okay.
AB: Had to be marked on the head. Yes, the forensic lab, the crime lab, was very exclusive. I think I had the only people in the hospital that ever got to tour the crime lab, and taught people down there—they may have included the emergency room later, but—how to mark, how to handle foreign bodies. They gave talks to the operating room nurses to tell us about how to handle foreign bodies—bullets, knife blades, all that sort of stuff—so that they were usable.
DH: Well, thank you for sharing your best recollections with us today. It's been 33 and 1/2 years now. It's been a long time.
AB: I'm sorry that, you know, some of these things just kinda escape me, and I can't be any more specific about 'em, but—probably is specific as what I recall.
JG: Okay, well thank you very much. We appreciate it.
AB: Well, thank you.
DH: Thank you.
[end of side 2]